Kafka · English · kafka-en logging: what separates "readable" from "usable"

332
KAr/kafka-en·posted by ran_bo·1 hour agoInternalsLocked

kafka-en logging: what separates "readable" from "usable"

Short version: kafka-en needs almost no tuning at small and medium scale — the point where it starts to hurt is much further out than most people assume. Full measurements below.

Order of investigation, by return on effort: 1. Check downstream latency first — usually it is not your problem 2. Then pool hit rate and wait-queue length 3. Only then GC and allocation 4. Suspect the framework last

The first thing was to collapse the variables. We were changing config and upgrading the version at the same time, and afterwards nobody could say which change caused what. We rolled back to moving one variable at a time, re-ran three times, and only then did the curve settle. Tedious, but not skippable.

One last trap: in container environments remember to adjust the memory-related parameters in step. Otherwise the host limit and the process expectation disagree, and the symptom is intermittent, unreproducible failure.

What genuinely surprised me was the tail. The average looked great while P99 jumped by an order of magnitude past some threshold. The cause was not kafka-en itself but our upstream connection reuse — the load test traffic was too clean and hid the long-tail requests.

On trade-offs, my view is this: if nobody on the team owns this area long-term, do not introduce a second mechanism. With two coexistence you first have to work out which one is even in play when things break, and that costs far more than the performance you saved.

47 comments

47 comments

M
Bbob_chen·2 days agoedited

I see point 3 differently. The trade-off depends on your read/write ratio: read-heavy with little writing means caching actually widens the inconsistency window.

361
Kkernel_panic·1 hour ago

Has anyone run a controlled experiment? I did, reducing it to a single variable, and the difference was 4% — within noise. So I suspect the main cause is something else.

300
Ddev_zhouOP·2 days ago

I see point 3 differently. The trade-off depends on your read/write ratio: read-heavy with little writing means caching actually widens the inconsistency window.

2
Cchen_dev·2 days ago

Worth learning from this debugging approach. We went straight at the logs and took a much longer route.

46
Llinlin·2 days ago

One counter-example: below kafka-en 7.4 the semantics of that code are different, so do not copy it verbatim. We got burned in staging and rolled back once.

300
Zzhou_yi·2 days ago

Agreeing with the above. One addition: with this option enabled the GC count in your metrics doubles, so adjust the alert threshold at the same time or it will keep firing.

263
Zzhu_zong·just now

One counter-example: below kafka-en 7.4 the semantics of that code are different, so do not copy it verbatim. We got burned in staging and rolled back once.

233
Bbob_chen·2 days ago

Saved. I am reworking this area this week — this saves a lot of wrong turns.

203
Sswoole_leeMod·5 hours ago

Can you give a minimal reproduction? I ran it locally for ten minutes and could not reproduce on macOS with the latest version.

193
Zzhou_yi·2 days ago

I just read the kafka-en source — the author actually explains the reasoning in a comment, roughly "so that it degrades into predictable behaviour in extreme cases".

156
Rrase·1 hour ago

Worth learning from this debugging approach. We went straight at the logs and took a much longer route.

141
Nnikic·2 days ago

Sharing our numbers, 8 cores 16GB, same scenario:

| Concurrency | P50 | P99 |
|---|---|---|
| 200 | 12ms | 88ms |
| 500 | 31ms | 340ms |

P99 clearly collapses at 500 concurrency, which lines up with your knee point.

138
Cchen_dev·3 minutes agoedited

I just read the kafka-en source — the author actually explains the reasoning in a comment, roughly "so that it degrades into predictable behaviour in extreme cases".

186
Rran_boOP·2 days ago

Has anyone run a controlled experiment? I did, reducing it to a single variable, and the difference was 4% — within noise. So I suspect the main cause is something else.

67
Lli_ming·2 days ago

Sharing our numbers, 8 cores 16GB, same scenario:

| Concurrency | P50 | P99 |
|---|---|---|
| 200 | 12ms | 88ms |
| 500 | 31ms | 340ms |

P99 clearly collapses at 500 concurrency, which lines up with your knee point.

15
Ttang_hao·28 minutes ago

Agreeing with the above. One addition: with this option enabled the GC count in your metrics doubles, so adjust the alert threshold at the same time or it will keep firing.

122
Bbob_chen·12 minutes ago

This matches what we see in production. We only hit it past 3k QPS; the earlier load tests showed nothing — the test traffic was too clean, with no long-tail requests.

1
Zzhou_yiOP·2 days ago

I see point 3 differently. The trade-off depends on your read/write ratio: read-heavy with little writing means caching actually widens the inconsistency window.

335
Mmike_xu·2 days ago

Has anyone run a controlled experiment? I did, reducing it to a single variable, and the difference was 4% — within noise. So I suspect the main cause is something else.

243
Zzhu_zong·1 hour ago

I just read the kafka-en source — the author actually explains the reasoning in a comment, roughly "so that it degrades into predictable behaviour in extreme cases".

35
Sslow_query·2 days ago

This is not a kafka-en problem, it is a usage problem. The docs say this API is not thread-safe and you must lock around it yourself.

119
Rran_bo·yesterday

A question: what changes in a container with a 512Mi memory limit? That is how we run it in production.

141
Mmike_xu·1 hour agoedited

I see point 3 differently. The trade-off depends on your read/write ratio: read-heavy with little writing means caching actually widens the inconsistency window.

115
Sswoole_lee·28 minutes ago

Can you give a minimal reproduction? I ran it locally for ten minutes and could not reproduce on macOS with the latest version.

6
Mmike_xu·2 days ago

There is actually a simpler fix that needs no architecture change: move this check up to the gateway and the problem disappears. The cost is one extra lookup at the gateway.

280
Kkernel_panic·3 minutes ago

Thanks for sharing real numbers — far more useful than the articles that only cover concepts.

97
Wwinter·2 days ago

This matches what we see in production. We only hit it past 3k QPS; the earlier load tests showed nothing — the test traffic was too clean, with no long-tail requests.

78
Rrase·2 days ago

Saved. I am reworking this area this week — this saves a lot of wrong turns.

64
Kkite·12 minutes ago

Worth learning from this debugging approach. We went straight at the logs and took a much longer route.

214
Hhuang_ke·2 days ago

Agreeing with the above. One addition: with this option enabled the GC count in your metrics doubles, so adjust the alert threshold at the same time or it will keep firing.

2
Sslow_query·28 minutes agoedited

This is not a kafka-en problem, it is a usage problem. The docs say this API is not thread-safe and you must lock around it yourself.

54
Oops_wang·28 minutes agoedited

Thanks for sharing real numbers — far more useful than the articles that only cover concepts.

365
Ttang_hao·2 days ago

There is actually a simpler fix that needs no architecture change: move this check up to the gateway and the problem disappears. The cost is one extra lookup at the gateway.

419
Rran_bo·2 days agoedited

We have run this in production for two years without hitting it. That said, we never reached this scale, so our experience is not really evidence here.

113
Lli_ming·yesterday

Thanks for sharing real numbers — far more useful than the articles that only cover concepts.

44
Bbob_chen·just now

Saved. I am reworking this area this week — this saves a lot of wrong turns.

41
Ttang_hao·28 minutes ago

We have run this in production for two years without hitting it. That said, we never reached this scale, so our experience is not really evidence here.

408
Rran_bo·just now

We have run this in production for two years without hitting it. That said, we never reached this scale, so our experience is not really evidence here.

149
Zzhu_zong·2 days ago

Sharing our numbers, 8 cores 16GB, same scenario:

| Concurrency | P50 | P99 |
|---|---|---|
| 200 | 12ms | 88ms |
| 500 | 31ms | 340ms |

P99 clearly collapses at 500 concurrency, which lines up with your knee point.

20
Sswoole_lee·2 days agoedited

This matches what we see in production. We only hit it past 3k QPS; the earlier load tests showed nothing — the test traffic was too clean, with no long-tail requests.

20
Sswoole_lee·2 days ago

A question: what changes in a container with a 512Mi memory limit? That is how we run it in production.

14
Cchen_dev·28 minutes agoedited

A question: what changes in a container with a 512Mi memory limit? That is how we run it in production.

9
Sslow_query·1 hour ago

One counter-example: below kafka-en 7.4 the semantics of that code are different, so do not copy it verbatim. We got burned in staging and rolled back once.

172
Ddev_zhou·2 days ago

Can you give a minimal reproduction? I ran it locally for ten minutes and could not reproduce on macOS with the latest version.

502
Zzhou_yi·yesterdayedited

Sharing our numbers, 8 cores 16GB, same scenario:

| Concurrency | P50 | P99 |
|---|---|---|
| 200 | 12ms | 88ms |
| 500 | 31ms | 340ms |

P99 clearly collapses at 500 concurrency, which lines up with your knee point.

83
Rran_bo·28 minutes ago

This is not a kafka-en problem, it is a usage problem. The docs say this API is not thread-safe and you must lock around it yourself.

296
Zzhou_yi·2 days ago

Worth learning from this debugging approach. We went straight at the logs and took a much longer route.

8

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