Clean Architecture · Chinese · Discussion: is the clean-architecture-zh ecosystem being replaced by another stack?

1.4K
CAr/clean-architecture-zh·posted by nikic·yesterdayReview

Discussion: is the clean-architecture-zh ecosystem being replaced by another stack?

Most clean-architecture-zh articles stop at "how to use it" and never cover "when not to use it". This is an attempt at the second half.

// Minimal reproduction: you must use a real long-tail distribution here.
// Uniform load-test traffic will never trigger this.
func (s *Server) handle(ctx context.Context) error {
    conn, err := s.pool.Acquire(ctx)
    if err != nil {
        return fmt.Errorf("acquire: %w", err)
    }
    defer conn.Release()

    return s.do(ctx, conn)
}

On trade-offs, my view is this: if nobody on the team owns this area long-term, do not introduce a second mechanism. With two coexistence you first have to work out which one is even in play when things break, and that costs far more than the performance you saved.

The first thing was to collapse the variables. We were changing config and upgrading the version at the same time, and afterwards nobody could say which change caused what. We rolled back to moving one variable at a time, re-ran three times, and only then did the curve settle. Tedious, but not skippable.

One last trap: in container environments remember to adjust the memory-related parameters in step. Otherwise the host limit and the process expectation disagree, and the symptom is intermittent, unreproducible failure.

What genuinely surprised me was the tail. The average looked great while P99 jumped by an order of magnitude past some threshold. The cause was not clean-architecture-zh itself but our upstream connection reuse — the load test traffic was too clean and hid the long-tail requests.

419 comments

419 comments

· first 120 loaded
M
Hhuang_ke·2 days ago

This matches what we see in production. We only hit it past 3k QPS; the earlier load tests showed nothing — the test traffic was too clean, with no long-tail requests.

438
Zzhu_zong·28 minutes ago

A question: what changes in a container with a 512Mi memory limit? That is how we run it in production.

435
Ttang_hao·2 days ago

Worth learning from this debugging approach. We went straight at the logs and took a much longer route.

148
Rran_bo·2 days ago

There is actually a simpler fix that needs no architecture change: move this check up to the gateway and the problem disappears. The cost is one extra lookup at the gateway.

391
Cchen_dev·2 days ago

Saved. I am reworking this area this week — this saves a lot of wrong turns.

21
Rran_boOP·2 days ago

There is actually a simpler fix that needs no architecture change: move this check up to the gateway and the problem disappears. The cost is one extra lookup at the gateway.

10
Sswoole_lee·12 minutes agoedited

Thanks for sharing real numbers — far more useful than the articles that only cover concepts.

46
Llinlin·2 days agoedited

Thanks for sharing real numbers — far more useful than the articles that only cover concepts.

109
Mmike_xu·1 hour ago

Sharing our numbers, 8 cores 16GB, same scenario:

| Concurrency | P50 | P99 |
|---|---|---|
| 200 | 12ms | 88ms |
| 500 | 31ms | 340ms |

P99 clearly collapses at 500 concurrency, which lines up with your knee point.

30
Lli_ming·2 days ago

We have run this in production for two years without hitting it. That said, we never reached this scale, so our experience is not really evidence here.

395
Llinlin·2 days ago

I just read the clean-architecture-zh source — the author actually explains the reasoning in a comment, roughly "so that it degrades into predictable behaviour in extreme cases".

228
Hhuang_ke·2 days agoLevel 6

We have run this in production for two years without hitting it. That said, we never reached this scale, so our experience is not really evidence here.

133
Ddev_zhou·1 hour ago

There is actually a simpler fix that needs no architecture change: move this check up to the gateway and the problem disappears. The cost is one extra lookup at the gateway.

27
Ttang_hao·2 days ago

This is not a clean-architecture-zh problem, it is a usage problem. The docs say this API is not thread-safe and you must lock around it yourself.

434
Sswoole_lee·2 days ago

Has anyone run a controlled experiment? I did, reducing it to a single variable, and the difference was 4% — within noise. So I suspect the main cause is something else.

412
Mmike_xu·yesterday

Can you give a minimal reproduction? I ran it locally for ten minutes and could not reproduce on macOS with the latest version.

392
Bbob_chen·3 minutes ago

This matches what we see in production. We only hit it past 3k QPS; the earlier load tests showed nothing — the test traffic was too clean, with no long-tail requests.

391
Kkite·3 minutes agoedited

Can you give a minimal reproduction? I ran it locally for ten minutes and could not reproduce on macOS with the latest version.

340
Rran_bo·2 days ago

This is not a clean-architecture-zh problem, it is a usage problem. The docs say this API is not thread-safe and you must lock around it yourself.

12
Ddev_zhouOP·2 days ago

This matches what we see in production. We only hit it past 3k QPS; the earlier load tests showed nothing — the test traffic was too clean, with no long-tail requests.

10
Mmike_xu·2 days ago

A question: what changes in a container with a 512Mi memory limit? That is how we run it in production.

193
Cchen_dev·2 days agoedited

I see point 3 differently. The trade-off depends on your read/write ratio: read-heavy with little writing means caching actually widens the inconsistency window.

107
Kkernel_panic·2 days ago

This matches what we see in production. We only hit it past 3k QPS; the earlier load tests showed nothing — the test traffic was too clean, with no long-tail requests.

13
Zzhu_zong·5 hours ago

Agreeing with the above. One addition: with this option enabled the GC count in your metrics doubles, so adjust the alert threshold at the same time or it will keep firing.

175
Zzhu_zong·2 days ago

Worth learning from this debugging approach. We went straight at the logs and took a much longer route.

161
Mmike_xu·2 days ago

This matches what we see in production. We only hit it past 3k QPS; the earlier load tests showed nothing — the test traffic was too clean, with no long-tail requests.

384
Oops_wangOP·yesterday

This is not a clean-architecture-zh problem, it is a usage problem. The docs say this API is not thread-safe and you must lock around it yourself.

154
Aalice_devMod·2 days ago

A question: what changes in a container with a 512Mi memory limit? That is how we run it in production.

34
Sswoole_lee·2 days agoedited

I just read the clean-architecture-zh source — the author actually explains the reasoning in a comment, roughly "so that it degrades into predictable behaviour in extreme cases".

195
Ddev_zhou·3 minutes agoedited

There is actually a simpler fix that needs no architecture change: move this check up to the gateway and the problem disappears. The cost is one extra lookup at the gateway.

380
LlinlinOP·2 days ago

A question: what changes in a container with a 512Mi memory limit? That is how we run it in production.

311
Sswoole_lee·2 days ago

One counter-example: below clean-architecture-zh 7.4 the semantics of that code are different, so do not copy it verbatim. We got burned in staging and rolled back once.

343
Wwinter·2 days ago

One counter-example: below clean-architecture-zh 7.4 the semantics of that code are different, so do not copy it verbatim. We got burned in staging and rolled back once.

339
Kkite·yesterday

Thanks for sharing real numbers — far more useful than the articles that only cover concepts.

322
Bbob_chen·2 days agoedited

I see point 3 differently. The trade-off depends on your read/write ratio: read-heavy with little writing means caching actually widens the inconsistency window.

306
Hhuang_keOP·2 days ago

One counter-example: below clean-architecture-zh 7.4 the semantics of that code are different, so do not copy it verbatim. We got burned in staging and rolled back once.

443
Mmike_xu·2 days ago

Saved. I am reworking this area this week — this saves a lot of wrong turns.

303
Lli_mingOP·28 minutes ago

Has anyone run a controlled experiment? I did, reducing it to a single variable, and the difference was 4% — within noise. So I suspect the main cause is something else.

237
Zzhu_zong·28 minutes ago

Sharing our numbers, 8 cores 16GB, same scenario:

| Concurrency | P50 | P99 |
|---|---|---|
| 200 | 12ms | 88ms |
| 500 | 31ms | 340ms |

P99 clearly collapses at 500 concurrency, which lines up with your knee point.

272
Ttang_hao·28 minutes ago

We have run this in production for two years without hitting it. That said, we never reached this scale, so our experience is not really evidence here.

264
Hhuang_ke·2 days agoedited

I see point 3 differently. The trade-off depends on your read/write ratio: read-heavy with little writing means caching actually widens the inconsistency window.

36
Wwinter·2 days ago

Can you give a minimal reproduction? I ran it locally for ten minutes and could not reproduce on macOS with the latest version.

241
Nnikic·2 days ago

There is actually a simpler fix that needs no architecture change: move this check up to the gateway and the problem disappears. The cost is one extra lookup at the gateway.

231
Cchen_dev·2 days ago

Thanks for sharing real numbers — far more useful than the articles that only cover concepts.

197
Zzhou_yi·2 days ago

One counter-example: below clean-architecture-zh 7.4 the semantics of that code are different, so do not copy it verbatim. We got burned in staging and rolled back once.

195
Lli_mingOP·2 days ago

Worth learning from this debugging approach. We went straight at the logs and took a much longer route.

89
Ddev_zhou·2 days ago

Has anyone run a controlled experiment? I did, reducing it to a single variable, and the difference was 4% — within noise. So I suspect the main cause is something else.

4
Oops_wang·2 days ago

Saved. I am reworking this area this week — this saves a lot of wrong turns.

148
Bbob_chen·just now

Worth learning from this debugging approach. We went straight at the logs and took a much longer route.

136
Llinlin·yesterday

Has anyone run a controlled experiment? I did, reducing it to a single variable, and the difference was 4% — within noise. So I suspect the main cause is something else.

128
Llinlin·2 hours ago

We have run this in production for two years without hitting it. That said, we never reached this scale, so our experience is not really evidence here.

127
Mmike_xu·3 minutes ago

Saved. I am reworking this area this week — this saves a lot of wrong turns.

108
Cchen_devOP·2 days ago

I just read the clean-architecture-zh source — the author actually explains the reasoning in a comment, roughly "so that it degrades into predictable behaviour in extreme cases".

47
Rrase·1 hour ago

This is not a clean-architecture-zh problem, it is a usage problem. The docs say this API is not thread-safe and you must lock around it yourself.

107
Nnikic·2 days ago

Worth learning from this debugging approach. We went straight at the logs and took a much longer route.

99
Ttang_hao·28 minutes ago

I just read the clean-architecture-zh source — the author actually explains the reasoning in a comment, roughly "so that it degrades into predictable behaviour in extreme cases".

93
Nnikic·2 days ago

I see point 3 differently. The trade-off depends on your read/write ratio: read-heavy with little writing means caching actually widens the inconsistency window.

4
Sslow_query·2 days ago

A question: what changes in a container with a 512Mi memory limit? That is how we run it in production.

179
Ddev_zhou·2 days ago

We have run this in production for two years without hitting it. That said, we never reached this scale, so our experience is not really evidence here.

92
Lli_ming·2 days ago

Agreeing with the above. One addition: with this option enabled the GC count in your metrics doubles, so adjust the alert threshold at the same time or it will keep firing.

86
Oops_wang·2 days ago

Has anyone run a controlled experiment? I did, reducing it to a single variable, and the difference was 4% — within noise. So I suspect the main cause is something else.

505
Zzhou_yi·2 days ago

Sharing our numbers, 8 cores 16GB, same scenario:

| Concurrency | P50 | P99 |
|---|---|---|
| 200 | 12ms | 88ms |
| 500 | 31ms | 340ms |

P99 clearly collapses at 500 concurrency, which lines up with your knee point.

67
Rrase·2 days ago

Thanks for sharing real numbers — far more useful than the articles that only cover concepts.

156
Nnikic·28 minutes ago

This matches what we see in production. We only hit it past 3k QPS; the earlier load tests showed nothing — the test traffic was too clean, with no long-tail requests.

73
Mmike_xuOP·just now

Sharing our numbers, 8 cores 16GB, same scenario:

| Concurrency | P50 | P99 |
|---|---|---|
| 200 | 12ms | 88ms |
| 500 | 31ms | 340ms |

P99 clearly collapses at 500 concurrency, which lines up with your knee point.

124
Nnikic·2 days ago

This is not a clean-architecture-zh problem, it is a usage problem. The docs say this API is not thread-safe and you must lock around it yourself.

66
WwinterOP·12 minutes ago

I see point 3 differently. The trade-off depends on your read/write ratio: read-heavy with little writing means caching actually widens the inconsistency window.

5
Sslow_query·2 hours ago

Agreeing with the above. One addition: with this option enabled the GC count in your metrics doubles, so adjust the alert threshold at the same time or it will keep firing.

62
Rrase·just now

I see point 3 differently. The trade-off depends on your read/write ratio: read-heavy with little writing means caching actually widens the inconsistency window.

375
Llinlin·2 hours ago

I see point 3 differently. The trade-off depends on your read/write ratio: read-heavy with little writing means caching actually widens the inconsistency window.

2
Kkernel_panic·3 minutes ago

This matches what we see in production. We only hit it past 3k QPS; the earlier load tests showed nothing — the test traffic was too clean, with no long-tail requests.

339
Cchen_dev·2 days ago

One counter-example: below clean-architecture-zh 7.4 the semantics of that code are different, so do not copy it verbatim. We got burned in staging and rolled back once.

94
Nnikic·2 days ago

This is not a clean-architecture-zh problem, it is a usage problem. The docs say this API is not thread-safe and you must lock around it yourself.

479
Kkernel_panic·2 days ago

We have run this in production for two years without hitting it. That said, we never reached this scale, so our experience is not really evidence here.

18
Rrase·2 days ago

Can you give a minimal reproduction? I ran it locally for ten minutes and could not reproduce on macOS with the latest version.

62
Nnikic·2 days agoedited

Saved. I am reworking this area this week — this saves a lot of wrong turns.

48
Rrase·2 days ago

This matches what we see in production. We only hit it past 3k QPS; the earlier load tests showed nothing — the test traffic was too clean, with no long-tail requests.

14
Bbob_chen·2 days ago

Agreeing with the above. One addition: with this option enabled the GC count in your metrics doubles, so adjust the alert threshold at the same time or it will keep firing.

148
Oops_wang·2 days ago

I see point 3 differently. The trade-off depends on your read/write ratio: read-heavy with little writing means caching actually widens the inconsistency window.

41
Lli_ming·2 days ago

A question: what changes in a container with a 512Mi memory limit? That is how we run it in production.

199
Cchen_dev·2 days ago

I just read the clean-architecture-zh source — the author actually explains the reasoning in a comment, roughly "so that it degrades into predictable behaviour in extreme cases".

24
Aalice_dev·2 days ago

One counter-example: below clean-architecture-zh 7.4 the semantics of that code are different, so do not copy it verbatim. We got burned in staging and rolled back once.

6
Kkite·2 days agoedited

Worth learning from this debugging approach. We went straight at the logs and took a much longer route.

22
Zzhou_yi·2 days ago

Saved. I am reworking this area this week — this saves a lot of wrong turns.

19
Zzhu_zong·2 days ago

Can you give a minimal reproduction? I ran it locally for ten minutes and could not reproduce on macOS with the latest version.

9
Ttang_hao·2 days ago

There is actually a simpler fix that needs no architecture change: move this check up to the gateway and the problem disappears. The cost is one extra lookup at the gateway.

7
Nnikic·2 days ago

I see point 3 differently. The trade-off depends on your read/write ratio: read-heavy with little writing means caching actually widens the inconsistency window.

4
Oops_wang·2 days ago

A question: what changes in a container with a 512Mi memory limit? That is how we run it in production.

3
Kkite·5 hours ago

There is actually a simpler fix that needs no architecture change: move this check up to the gateway and the problem disappears. The cost is one extra lookup at the gateway.

346
Rrase·just now

One counter-example: below clean-architecture-zh 7.4 the semantics of that code are different, so do not copy it verbatim. We got burned in staging and rolled back once.

1
Oops_wang·12 minutes ago

Can you give a minimal reproduction? I ran it locally for ten minutes and could not reproduce on macOS with the latest version.

32
Cchen_devMod·2 days ago

This is not a clean-architecture-zh problem, it is a usage problem. The docs say this API is not thread-safe and you must lock around it yourself.

369
Nnikic·2 days agoedited

Agreeing with the above. One addition: with this option enabled the GC count in your metrics doubles, so adjust the alert threshold at the same time or it will keep firing.

40
Mmike_xu·2 days ago

Can you give a minimal reproduction? I ran it locally for ten minutes and could not reproduce on macOS with the latest version.

18
Nnikic·1 hour ago

Thanks for sharing real numbers — far more useful than the articles that only cover concepts.

28
Bbob_chen·5 hours agoedited

We have run this in production for two years without hitting it. That said, we never reached this scale, so our experience is not really evidence here.

15
Sswoole_lee·28 minutes ago

I just read the clean-architecture-zh source — the author actually explains the reasoning in a comment, roughly "so that it degrades into predictable behaviour in extreme cases".

276
Aalice_dev·2 days ago

Sharing our numbers, 8 cores 16GB, same scenario:

| Concurrency | P50 | P99 |
|---|---|---|
| 200 | 12ms | 88ms |
| 500 | 31ms | 340ms |

P99 clearly collapses at 500 concurrency, which lines up with your knee point.

13
Lli_mingMod·2 days ago

I just read the clean-architecture-zh source — the author actually explains the reasoning in a comment, roughly "so that it degrades into predictable behaviour in extreme cases".

2
Sslow_query·12 minutes ago

Sharing our numbers, 8 cores 16GB, same scenario:

| Concurrency | P50 | P99 |
|---|---|---|
| 200 | 12ms | 88ms |
| 500 | 31ms | 340ms |

P99 clearly collapses at 500 concurrency, which lines up with your knee point.

1
Zzhu_zong·just now

This is not a clean-architecture-zh problem, it is a usage problem. The docs say this API is not thread-safe and you must lock around it yourself.

11
Kkite·2 days ago

Has anyone run a controlled experiment? I did, reducing it to a single variable, and the difference was 4% — within noise. So I suspect the main cause is something else.

454
Cchen_dev·1 hour ago

Worth learning from this debugging approach. We went straight at the logs and took a much longer route.

211
Nnikic·2 days ago

Has anyone run a controlled experiment? I did, reducing it to a single variable, and the difference was 4% — within noise. So I suspect the main cause is something else.

426
Kkernel_panic·2 days ago

Worth learning from this debugging approach. We went straight at the logs and took a much longer route.

3
Nnikic·1 hour agoLevel 6

I just read the clean-architecture-zh source — the author actually explains the reasoning in a comment, roughly "so that it degrades into predictable behaviour in extreme cases".

3
Wwinter·5 hours ago

Agreeing with the above. One addition: with this option enabled the GC count in your metrics doubles, so adjust the alert threshold at the same time or it will keep firing.

2
Oops_wang·2 days ago

Can you give a minimal reproduction? I ran it locally for ten minutes and could not reproduce on macOS with the latest version.

2
Llinlin·2 days ago

A question: what changes in a container with a 512Mi memory limit? That is how we run it in production.

1
Bbob_chen·2 hours agoedited

We have run this in production for two years without hitting it. That said, we never reached this scale, so our experience is not really evidence here.

9
Lli_mingMod·yesterday

Saved. I am reworking this area this week — this saves a lot of wrong turns.

1
Ddev_zhou·2 days ago

Agreeing with the above. One addition: with this option enabled the GC count in your metrics doubles, so adjust the alert threshold at the same time or it will keep firing.

237
Wwinter·just now

Has anyone run a controlled experiment? I did, reducing it to a single variable, and the difference was 4% — within noise. So I suspect the main cause is something else.

62
Zzhu_zong·1 hour ago

Thanks for sharing real numbers — far more useful than the articles that only cover concepts.

1
Sslow_query·2 days ago

Saved. I am reworking this area this week — this saves a lot of wrong turns.

201
Oops_wang·2 days ago

There is actually a simpler fix that needs no architecture change: move this check up to the gateway and the problem disappears. The cost is one extra lookup at the gateway.

122
Wwinter·12 minutes ago

Agreeing with the above. One addition: with this option enabled the GC count in your metrics doubles, so adjust the alert threshold at the same time or it will keep firing.

1
Cchen_dev·2 days ago

Thanks for sharing real numbers — far more useful than the articles that only cover concepts.

1
Lli_ming·2 days ago

One counter-example: below clean-architecture-zh 7.4 the semantics of that code are different, so do not copy it verbatim. We got burned in staging and rolled back once.

1
Llinlin·2 days agoedited

Sharing our numbers, 8 cores 16GB, same scenario:

| Concurrency | P50 | P99 |
|---|---|---|
| 200 | 12ms | 88ms |
| 500 | 31ms | 340ms |

P99 clearly collapses at 500 concurrency, which lines up with your knee point.

1

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