Agent · Architecture · agent-design logging: what separates "readable" from "usable"

1.1K
AGr/agent-design·posted by rase·yesterdayJobs

agent-design logging: what separates "readable" from "usable"

It took me two weeks of on-and-off digging and plenty of wrong turns. Writing the process down as it happened so the next person spends less time.

One last trap: in container environments remember to adjust the memory-related parameters in step. Otherwise the host limit and the process expectation disagree, and the symptom is intermittent, unreproducible failure.

# Load test: do not jump straight to the max concurrency.
# Ramp it up, otherwise you miss the knee.
for c in 50 100 200 400 800; do
  wrk -t8 -c$c -d60s --latency http://127.0.0.1:8080/api/feed
  sleep 20
done

What genuinely surprised me was the tail. The average looked great while P99 jumped by an order of magnitude past some threshold. The cause was not agent-design itself but our upstream connection reuse — the load test traffic was too clean and hid the long-tail requests.

The first thing was to collapse the variables. We were changing config and upgrading the version at the same time, and afterwards nobody could say which change caused what. We rolled back to moving one variable at a time, re-ran three times, and only then did the curve settle. Tedious, but not skippable.

On trade-offs, my view is this: if nobody on the team owns this area long-term, do not introduce a second mechanism. With two coexistence you first have to work out which one is even in play when things break, and that costs far more than the performance you saved.

435 comments

435 comments

· first 120 loaded
M
Hhuang_ke·2 days agoedited

Saved. I am reworking this area this week — this saves a lot of wrong turns.

502
Zzhu_zong·2 days ago

Thanks for sharing real numbers — far more useful than the articles that only cover concepts.

492
Hhuang_ke·2 days ago

Worth learning from this debugging approach. We went straight at the logs and took a much longer route.

426
Zzhu_zong·1 hour ago

We have run this in production for two years without hitting it. That said, we never reached this scale, so our experience is not really evidence here.

14
Aalice_dev·2 days ago

Has anyone run a controlled experiment? I did, reducing it to a single variable, and the difference was 4% — within noise. So I suspect the main cause is something else.

361
Ddev_zhou·2 days ago

Saved. I am reworking this area this week — this saves a lot of wrong turns.

463
Oops_wang·2 hours ago

I just read the agent-design source — the author actually explains the reasoning in a comment, roughly "so that it degrades into predictable behaviour in extreme cases".

359
Sslow_query·just now

Agreeing with the above. One addition: with this option enabled the GC count in your metrics doubles, so adjust the alert threshold at the same time or it will keep firing.

343
Zzhou_yi·2 days ago

Worth learning from this debugging approach. We went straight at the logs and took a much longer route.

6
Rrase·2 days ago

I just read the agent-design source — the author actually explains the reasoning in a comment, roughly "so that it degrades into predictable behaviour in extreme cases".

5
Sslow_query·12 minutes ago

There is actually a simpler fix that needs no architecture change: move this check up to the gateway and the problem disappears. The cost is one extra lookup at the gateway.

255
Nnikic·2 days ago

Saved. I am reworking this area this week — this saves a lot of wrong turns.

343
Rrase·2 days ago

Agreeing with the above. One addition: with this option enabled the GC count in your metrics doubles, so adjust the alert threshold at the same time or it will keep firing.

240
Aalice_dev·2 days ago

One counter-example: below agent-design 7.4 the semantics of that code are different, so do not copy it verbatim. We got burned in staging and rolled back once.

300
Oops_wang·2 hours agoedited

Can you give a minimal reproduction? I ran it locally for ten minutes and could not reproduce on macOS with the latest version.

285
Sslow_queryMod·3 minutes ago

This matches what we see in production. We only hit it past 3k QPS; the earlier load tests showed nothing — the test traffic was too clean, with no long-tail requests.

271
Nnikic·3 minutes ago

One counter-example: below agent-design 7.4 the semantics of that code are different, so do not copy it verbatim. We got burned in staging and rolled back once.

31
Nnikic·2 days ago

There is actually a simpler fix that needs no architecture change: move this check up to the gateway and the problem disappears. The cost is one extra lookup at the gateway.

73
Ttang_hao·2 days ago

Sharing our numbers, 8 cores 16GB, same scenario:

| Concurrency | P50 | P99 |
|---|---|---|
| 200 | 12ms | 88ms |
| 500 | 31ms | 340ms |

P99 clearly collapses at 500 concurrency, which lines up with your knee point.

414
Zzhou_yi·2 days ago

Agreeing with the above. One addition: with this option enabled the GC count in your metrics doubles, so adjust the alert threshold at the same time or it will keep firing.

283
Zzhu_zong·2 days ago

Worth learning from this debugging approach. We went straight at the logs and took a much longer route.

90
Llinlin·2 days ago

This is not a agent-design problem, it is a usage problem. The docs say this API is not thread-safe and you must lock around it yourself.

191
Ddev_zhou·12 minutes ago

I see point 3 differently. The trade-off depends on your read/write ratio: read-heavy with little writing means caching actually widens the inconsistency window.

262
Cchen_dev·1 hour ago

Sharing our numbers, 8 cores 16GB, same scenario:

| Concurrency | P50 | P99 |
|---|---|---|
| 200 | 12ms | 88ms |
| 500 | 31ms | 340ms |

P99 clearly collapses at 500 concurrency, which lines up with your knee point.

258
Rrase·2 days ago

Has anyone run a controlled experiment? I did, reducing it to a single variable, and the difference was 4% — within noise. So I suspect the main cause is something else.

409
Rran_bo·2 days ago

This is not a agent-design problem, it is a usage problem. The docs say this API is not thread-safe and you must lock around it yourself.

117
Kkernel_panic·2 days ago

We have run this in production for two years without hitting it. That said, we never reached this scale, so our experience is not really evidence here.

263
Mmike_xu·12 minutes ago

One counter-example: below agent-design 7.4 the semantics of that code are different, so do not copy it verbatim. We got burned in staging and rolled back once.

94
Wwinter·3 minutes ago

Saved. I am reworking this area this week — this saves a lot of wrong turns.

98
NnikicMod·2 days ago

Sharing our numbers, 8 cores 16GB, same scenario:

| Concurrency | P50 | P99 |
|---|---|---|
| 200 | 12ms | 88ms |
| 500 | 31ms | 340ms |

P99 clearly collapses at 500 concurrency, which lines up with your knee point.

221
Llinlin·2 days ago

Can you give a minimal reproduction? I ran it locally for ten minutes and could not reproduce on macOS with the latest version.

244
Ttang_hao·2 days ago

This matches what we see in production. We only hit it past 3k QPS; the earlier load tests showed nothing — the test traffic was too clean, with no long-tail requests.

480
Llinlin·28 minutes ago

A question: what changes in a container with a 512Mi memory limit? That is how we run it in production.

239
Llinlin·12 minutes ago

Worth learning from this debugging approach. We went straight at the logs and took a much longer route.

199
Kkernel_panic·2 days ago

Can you give a minimal reproduction? I ran it locally for ten minutes and could not reproduce on macOS with the latest version.

142
Oops_wangMod·2 days ago

This matches what we see in production. We only hit it past 3k QPS; the earlier load tests showed nothing — the test traffic was too clean, with no long-tail requests.

48
Kkernel_panic·2 days agoedited

A question: what changes in a container with a 512Mi memory limit? That is how we run it in production.

15
Ttang_hao·2 days ago

This matches what we see in production. We only hit it past 3k QPS; the earlier load tests showed nothing — the test traffic was too clean, with no long-tail requests.

14
Nnikic·2 days ago

One counter-example: below agent-design 7.4 the semantics of that code are different, so do not copy it verbatim. We got burned in staging and rolled back once.

239
Rrase·2 days ago

Sharing our numbers, 8 cores 16GB, same scenario:

| Concurrency | P50 | P99 |
|---|---|---|
| 200 | 12ms | 88ms |
| 500 | 31ms | 340ms |

P99 clearly collapses at 500 concurrency, which lines up with your knee point.

23
Nnikic·2 days ago

One counter-example: below agent-design 7.4 the semantics of that code are different, so do not copy it verbatim. We got burned in staging and rolled back once.

291
Zzhou_yi·1 hour ago

One counter-example: below agent-design 7.4 the semantics of that code are different, so do not copy it verbatim. We got burned in staging and rolled back once.

1
Ddev_zhouOP·2 days ago

Has anyone run a controlled experiment? I did, reducing it to a single variable, and the difference was 4% — within noise. So I suspect the main cause is something else.

41
Wwinter·2 days ago

Agreeing with the above. One addition: with this option enabled the GC count in your metrics doubles, so adjust the alert threshold at the same time or it will keep firing.

26
Zzhou_yi·2 days ago

We have run this in production for two years without hitting it. That said, we never reached this scale, so our experience is not really evidence here.

3
Kkite·2 days ago

I just read the agent-design source — the author actually explains the reasoning in a comment, roughly "so that it degrades into predictable behaviour in extreme cases".

235
Ttang_hao·1 hour ago

I see point 3 differently. The trade-off depends on your read/write ratio: read-heavy with little writing means caching actually widens the inconsistency window.

221
Wwinter·2 hours ago

Worth learning from this debugging approach. We went straight at the logs and took a much longer route.

210
Zzhu_zong·12 minutes ago

We have run this in production for two years without hitting it. That said, we never reached this scale, so our experience is not really evidence here.

332
Hhuang_ke·2 days ago

Agreeing with the above. One addition: with this option enabled the GC count in your metrics doubles, so adjust the alert threshold at the same time or it will keep firing.

37
Ddev_zhouOP·2 days ago

Has anyone run a controlled experiment? I did, reducing it to a single variable, and the difference was 4% — within noise. So I suspect the main cause is something else.

3
Sswoole_lee·yesterday

This is not a agent-design problem, it is a usage problem. The docs say this API is not thread-safe and you must lock around it yourself.

57
Lli_ming·3 minutes ago

This is not a agent-design problem, it is a usage problem. The docs say this API is not thread-safe and you must lock around it yourself.

1
Aalice_dev·2 days ago

Sharing our numbers, 8 cores 16GB, same scenario:

| Concurrency | P50 | P99 |
|---|---|---|
| 200 | 12ms | 88ms |
| 500 | 31ms | 340ms |

P99 clearly collapses at 500 concurrency, which lines up with your knee point.

15
Rrase·2 days ago

Agreeing with the above. One addition: with this option enabled the GC count in your metrics doubles, so adjust the alert threshold at the same time or it will keep firing.

57
Sswoole_lee·5 hours ago

I see point 3 differently. The trade-off depends on your read/write ratio: read-heavy with little writing means caching actually widens the inconsistency window.

190
Llinlin·2 days ago

Has anyone run a controlled experiment? I did, reducing it to a single variable, and the difference was 4% — within noise. So I suspect the main cause is something else.

175
Zzhu_zong·just now

I see point 3 differently. The trade-off depends on your read/write ratio: read-heavy with little writing means caching actually widens the inconsistency window.

90
Ddev_zhou·3 minutes agoedited

Can you give a minimal reproduction? I ran it locally for ten minutes and could not reproduce on macOS with the latest version.

175
Mmike_xu·3 minutes ago

Saved. I am reworking this area this week — this saves a lot of wrong turns.

172
Oops_wang·2 days agoedited

This matches what we see in production. We only hit it past 3k QPS; the earlier load tests showed nothing — the test traffic was too clean, with no long-tail requests.

1
Lli_ming·2 days ago

I just read the agent-design source — the author actually explains the reasoning in a comment, roughly "so that it degrades into predictable behaviour in extreme cases".

1
Lli_ming·2 days ago

Thanks for sharing real numbers — far more useful than the articles that only cover concepts.

60
Oops_wang·2 days ago

We have run this in production for two years without hitting it. That said, we never reached this scale, so our experience is not really evidence here.

30
Ddev_zhou·2 days ago

Thanks for sharing real numbers — far more useful than the articles that only cover concepts.

145
Lli_mingOP·12 minutes ago

There is actually a simpler fix that needs no architecture change: move this check up to the gateway and the problem disappears. The cost is one extra lookup at the gateway.

81
Kkite·2 days ago

Saved. I am reworking this area this week — this saves a lot of wrong turns.

139
Sswoole_leeMod·2 days ago

Worth learning from this debugging approach. We went straight at the logs and took a much longer route.

197
Mmike_xu·2 days ago

A question: what changes in a container with a 512Mi memory limit? That is how we run it in production.

134
Zzhu_zong·just now

Can you give a minimal reproduction? I ran it locally for ten minutes and could not reproduce on macOS with the latest version.

126
Ttang_hao·3 minutes ago

We have run this in production for two years without hitting it. That said, we never reached this scale, so our experience is not really evidence here.

77
Cchen_dev·2 days ago

I see point 3 differently. The trade-off depends on your read/write ratio: read-heavy with little writing means caching actually widens the inconsistency window.

96
Nnikic·2 days ago

We have run this in production for two years without hitting it. That said, we never reached this scale, so our experience is not really evidence here.

113
Cchen_dev·2 hours ago

This is not a agent-design problem, it is a usage problem. The docs say this API is not thread-safe and you must lock around it yourself.

109
Ttang_haoOP·2 hours ago

Can you give a minimal reproduction? I ran it locally for ten minutes and could not reproduce on macOS with the latest version.

315
Bbob_chen·2 days agoedited

Thanks for sharing real numbers — far more useful than the articles that only cover concepts.

22
Cchen_dev·1 hour ago

Saved. I am reworking this area this week — this saves a lot of wrong turns.

39
Oops_wang·2 days agoedited

This matches what we see in production. We only hit it past 3k QPS; the earlier load tests showed nothing — the test traffic was too clean, with no long-tail requests.

435
Kkite·2 days ago

I just read the agent-design source — the author actually explains the reasoning in a comment, roughly "so that it degrades into predictable behaviour in extreme cases".

456
Nnikic·2 days agoLevel 6

A question: what changes in a container with a 512Mi memory limit? That is how we run it in production.

5
Mmike_xu·2 days ago

Sharing our numbers, 8 cores 16GB, same scenario:

| Concurrency | P50 | P99 |
|---|---|---|
| 200 | 12ms | 88ms |
| 500 | 31ms | 340ms |

P99 clearly collapses at 500 concurrency, which lines up with your knee point.

293
Zzhou_yiOP·2 days agoedited

Agreeing with the above. One addition: with this option enabled the GC count in your metrics doubles, so adjust the alert threshold at the same time or it will keep firing.

287
Nnikic·2 days agoedited

There is actually a simpler fix that needs no architecture change: move this check up to the gateway and the problem disappears. The cost is one extra lookup at the gateway.

290
NnikicOP·2 days ago

Worth learning from this debugging approach. We went straight at the logs and took a much longer route.

166
Rran_bo·2 days agoeditedLevel 6

Sharing our numbers, 8 cores 16GB, same scenario:

| Concurrency | P50 | P99 |
|---|---|---|
| 200 | 12ms | 88ms |
| 500 | 31ms | 340ms |

P99 clearly collapses at 500 concurrency, which lines up with your knee point.

137
Oops_wang·2 days ago

Has anyone run a controlled experiment? I did, reducing it to a single variable, and the difference was 4% — within noise. So I suspect the main cause is something else.

17
Rran_bo·2 days agoLevel 6

A question: what changes in a container with a 512Mi memory limit? That is how we run it in production.

117
Sslow_query·2 days ago

I see point 3 differently. The trade-off depends on your read/write ratio: read-heavy with little writing means caching actually widens the inconsistency window.

239
Cchen_dev·2 days ago

Has anyone run a controlled experiment? I did, reducing it to a single variable, and the difference was 4% — within noise. So I suspect the main cause is something else.

45
Rrase·12 minutes ago

Has anyone run a controlled experiment? I did, reducing it to a single variable, and the difference was 4% — within noise. So I suspect the main cause is something else.

80
Ddev_zhou·2 days ago

Agreeing with the above. One addition: with this option enabled the GC count in your metrics doubles, so adjust the alert threshold at the same time or it will keep firing.

79
Rran_bo·2 days ago

I just read the agent-design source — the author actually explains the reasoning in a comment, roughly "so that it degrades into predictable behaviour in extreme cases".

102
Nnikic·2 days ago

This matches what we see in production. We only hit it past 3k QPS; the earlier load tests showed nothing — the test traffic was too clean, with no long-tail requests.

354
Aalice_devOP·2 days ago

A question: what changes in a container with a 512Mi memory limit? That is how we run it in production.

3
Ttang_hao·2 days ago

I just read the agent-design source — the author actually explains the reasoning in a comment, roughly "so that it degrades into predictable behaviour in extreme cases".

378
Nnikic·2 days ago

We have run this in production for two years without hitting it. That said, we never reached this scale, so our experience is not really evidence here.

14
Nnikic·5 hours agoedited

Thanks for sharing real numbers — far more useful than the articles that only cover concepts.

388
Mmike_xu·2 days ago

Saved. I am reworking this area this week — this saves a lot of wrong turns.

46
Hhuang_ke·2 days ago

This is not a agent-design problem, it is a usage problem. The docs say this API is not thread-safe and you must lock around it yourself.

46
Zzhu_zong·3 minutes ago

Sharing our numbers, 8 cores 16GB, same scenario:

| Concurrency | P50 | P99 |
|---|---|---|
| 200 | 12ms | 88ms |
| 500 | 31ms | 340ms |

P99 clearly collapses at 500 concurrency, which lines up with your knee point.

33
Ddev_zhou·2 days ago

A question: what changes in a container with a 512Mi memory limit? That is how we run it in production.

20
Sswoole_lee·2 days ago

One counter-example: below agent-design 7.4 the semantics of that code are different, so do not copy it verbatim. We got burned in staging and rolled back once.

14
Mmike_xu·2 days ago

This is not a agent-design problem, it is a usage problem. The docs say this API is not thread-safe and you must lock around it yourself.

5
Nnikic·2 days ago

Agreeing with the above. One addition: with this option enabled the GC count in your metrics doubles, so adjust the alert threshold at the same time or it will keep firing.

67
Kkernel_panic·2 days ago

I see point 3 differently. The trade-off depends on your read/write ratio: read-heavy with little writing means caching actually widens the inconsistency window.

4
Hhuang_ke·2 days ago

Thanks for sharing real numbers — far more useful than the articles that only cover concepts.

3
Rrase·2 days ago

Thanks for sharing real numbers — far more useful than the articles that only cover concepts.

20
Rrase·12 minutes agoedited

This matches what we see in production. We only hit it past 3k QPS; the earlier load tests showed nothing — the test traffic was too clean, with no long-tail requests.

3
Kkite·2 days ago

There is actually a simpler fix that needs no architecture change: move this check up to the gateway and the problem disappears. The cost is one extra lookup at the gateway.

205
Ttang_hao·2 days ago

Can you give a minimal reproduction? I ran it locally for ten minutes and could not reproduce on macOS with the latest version.

39
Nnikic·2 days agoedited

I see point 3 differently. The trade-off depends on your read/write ratio: read-heavy with little writing means caching actually widens the inconsistency window.

1
Rrase·2 days ago

I just read the agent-design source — the author actually explains the reasoning in a comment, roughly "so that it degrades into predictable behaviour in extreme cases".

2
Aalice_dev·2 days ago

This is not a agent-design problem, it is a usage problem. The docs say this API is not thread-safe and you must lock around it yourself.

1
KkiteMod·2 days ago

There is actually a simpler fix that needs no architecture change: move this check up to the gateway and the problem disappears. The cost is one extra lookup at the gateway.

391
Mmike_xu·2 days ago

One counter-example: below agent-design 7.4 the semantics of that code are different, so do not copy it verbatim. We got burned in staging and rolled back once.

1
Wwinter·2 days ago

There is actually a simpler fix that needs no architecture change: move this check up to the gateway and the problem disappears. The cost is one extra lookup at the gateway.

1
Rran_bo·yesterday

There is actually a simpler fix that needs no architecture change: move this check up to the gateway and the problem disappears. The cost is one extra lookup at the gateway.

1
Zzhu_zongOP·2 days agoedited

Can you give a minimal reproduction? I ran it locally for ten minutes and could not reproduce on macOS with the latest version.

362
Zzhu_zong·2 days ago

Worth learning from this debugging approach. We went straight at the logs and took a much longer route.

1
Aalice_dev·2 days ago

A question: what changes in a container with a 512Mi memory limit? That is how we run it in production.

1

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